War in Eregion

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Re: War in Eregion

Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:41 am

Good thoughts again Billy, It's very helpful that you are thinking alternatives, not just +1A etc.

Here's my image of CB and the smiths.
CB is an elf lord, so he has some weapons training in addition to his natural heritage. Thus he has 2A and F6. As a royal, he is expected to dress and fight in the "usual" manner. He is equally as skilled at using chisels and carving tools as he is hammers as he makes rather delicate things, like the rings and Elessar. So I don't imagine him to be the typical, hammer wielding smith.

The smiths are indeed the finest in Middle Earth. They have access to the best materials, but where CB does more intricate detailing, their job is crafting the armour for troops, metal goods for the construction of the city and regular everyday items like cups, which are still elegant, but not nearly in the league of CB. While they may have constructed a bunch of armour, it wasn't for them, and generally they don't like wearing it, especially while working. The job of a smith was to repair and adjust armour before and after battle, they weren't soldiers who trained every day, took guard duty etc. - they had other things to do. These are the reasons why I think they should have D5 or not more than D6.

I definitely think they should have Burly instead of +1S and use 2H hammers, it just fits well. S4 and F5 is normal, maybe drop it down to F4 as they aren't soldiers, but I think not. I'm thinking two options with them to make them interesting.
Option 1 is to give them 2 wounds to represent their endurance working all day in the workshop.
Option 2 is taken from your suggestion for the Kings Guard, would be that they can increase their attack by 1 for each point of strength that they drop, giving them up to S4, 1A or S1, 4A. Obviously most people would go with S3, A2. I'm not sure that I'm comfortable with that entirely, even though the profile isn't overpowered with it.
I'm still thinking about the bonus for them being near CB, happy to leave it out for now, it seems like it would go better with the Kings Guard.

As for the KG, I think the easiest thing to do is just give them +1A when shielding, for a total of 3. Pretty good chance they will win. I still think it would be interesting to allow them to support each other, which is only 2A at S3 when they do win (which would be 6 attacks if both shield and use the special rule). When using the special rule, no special strikes.

**Spoiler**
CB will not be fighting during the first fight with the evil banner.

I'm going to put the profiles into a post below, to make the earlier posts shorter (or not any longer).
Last edited by Hodush on Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: War in Eregion

Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:46 am

Summary of Wargear

Elven Defenders Blade: Counts as an Elven Blade but may not be used as a 2 handed weapon.
Mithril Armour: Gives 3 defence

Summary of Profiles

Celebrimbor, Lord of Eregion - Points: 105
.. F ... S .. D . A .. W .. C . M/W/F
6/3+ . 4 .. 8 .. 2 ... 2 .. 6 .. 2/2/2

Wargear:
Elven Defenders Blade
Mithril Armour
Shield

Special Rules:
Woodland Creature
Master of Metal: If Celebrimbor has a higher fight value than his opponent, the opponents defense is reduced by the difference. This does not apply to any allies in the same fight as Celebrimbor.
Lord of Eregion: Celebrimbor is determined to see any threat to the land destroyed. Any time he charges a hero or multi wound model, he may call a free heroic strike.

King's Guard - Points: 15
.. F ... S .. D . A .. W .. C
6/3+ .. 3 . 7 .. 1 ... 1 .. 6

Wargear:
Elven Defenders Blade
Mithril Armour
Shield
Spear....1pt

Special Rules:
Bodyguard
Woodland Creature
Ancient Defenders: After centuries of fighting in Elven shield walls and protecting their king, these elite warriors have become accustomed to being on the defensive and exploiting their foes weaknesses while they remain steadfast.

King's guard receive +1 attack when shielding, for a total of 3. In addition, they may make a single, unmodified attack if they win combat when shielding. This also applies when supporting another King's Guard, giving a maximum of 6A, but 2 strikes to wound.

Smith of Eregion - Points 15
.. F ... S .. D . A .. W .. C
5/3+ .. 4 . 5 .. 1 ... 1 .. 5

Wargear:
2 Handed Hammer
Armour

Special Rules:
Woodland Creature
Burly
Indomitable Blows: Through hours of repetitive and exhausting work each day, the Smith's of Eregion have perfected the ability to strike with unerring precision and use no more than the exact power required for each stroke.

To represent this, a Smith of Eregion may perform the Bash special strike but may still strike blows as normal.

Annatar, Lord of Gifts - Points: 270
.. F ... S .. D . A .. W .. C . M/W/F
6/3+ . 4 .. 6 .. 2 ... 2 .. 7 .. 3/6*/3**

Wargear:
Elven Blade
Armour
The One Ring

Special Rules:
Commanding Presence Allied allied troops treat Annatar as a banner (6" range).
Lord of Middle Earth: Taking fair guise and making himself known as the Lord of Gifts, Annatar's willful and charismatic nature along with the subtle workings of deception invoke awe and loyalty among his followers.
Annatar may lead a warband of 24 Warriors. However, any time Annatar is wounded (after any fate rolls), his web of deceit begins to come undone. All evil models except Annatar must pass a courage test or flee the field and are removed as casualties. (Treat the army as broken until all tests are resolved. The usual stand fast calls etc may be made).
*The Lord of the Rings: Annatar can use 1 point of Will per turn without reducing his own Will store.

**The One Ring: The One Ring amplifies Annatar's abilities. He may spend a single might point without having to reduce his store (even if he has none remaining) to modify any roll. Subject to the normal uses of might. Additionally, whenever Annatar passes a fate roll on a 4+, it is not reduced from his store.

Call to Glory: Whether by some hidden influence or by their own making, the servants of the Lord of Gifts displayed many acts of heroism as they sought the favour of their leige.
Once per turn, in the movement phase, Annatar may expend a point of Might or Will to single a model for their Call to Glory. The model gains +1 to their entire stat line (not M/W/F) for the duration of that turn. If they are in combat, they must kill all the models in their fight or suffer -1 to their stat line at the beginning of the next turn, immediately after priority.
NB: Models with 0 wounds are removed from the game.

Magical Powers:
Bladewrath Range: 12" Score to use: 2+
Terrifying Aura Range: Self Score to use: 3+. When Channeled, In addition to the normal effects, any hits with ranged weapons targeting Annatar or any model in his fight must be re-rolled. Re-rolls for heroic accuracy may still be used if the second shot is unsuccessful.
Wither Range: 12" Score to use: 3+ Permanently reduces targets strength by 1 - refer to Necromancer profile. Channeled: Reduces Strength by D3 (to a minimum of1)
Command Range: 12" Score to use: 4+
Last edited by Hodush on Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:37 am, edited 11 times in total.

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Re: War in Eregion

Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:44 am

Ah right I understand now, we just had different visions of how the smiths would be in our heads :)

I think they're a little underpriced with those stats if you compare them to a kjazad guard, In addition keeping track of them as a two wound model would be a real pain in game as there is likely to be a few of them. I think if you simply dropped a wound from them but they kept their price it would make a well priced unit as you're paying 2 points for burly. I'm not sure the kings guard rule suits them that well, and 4 s1 attacks with plus 1 to wound is actually really strong, probably too strong....
If you want something different that represents their strength perhaps something like:

'Dolorous blow' The constant hours of back breaking work done in the smithies means that 'Smith's of Eregion' make their attacks with bone crunching power, to represent this a 'Smith of Eregion' may perform the 'bash' (That's the one that knocks you to the floor isn't it??) special attack but may still strike blows as normal.

I like the kings guard and 3 attacks means they should win their fights but they're not ridiculously strong as they can only attack with one dice. So if they were supported by a fellow kings guard would they get 6 attacks to win the fight but only strike with 2??

I love the rules you're coming up with keep up the good work :)
Billy

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Re: War in Eregion

Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:51 am

A little under priced as in 1 or 2 points from my calculations? I'm better with pricing heroes than troops. On that topic, I went through the free people book and compared the heroes to CB's stats. The range was from 90-110 points with 105 being the most common followed by 95, so I think 105 is ok for him.

2W would be a little annoying but there are very few 2W troops in the game which appealed to me to make one. After talking it through with you I am much more comfortable with where they are now and not just some cheesy blacksmith turned hero from any fantasy book. I will swap the 2W for Dolorous blow, though I am not sure that is the right meaning you were thinking of ;) "feeling or expressing great sorrow or distress". One of my weaknesses is coming up with good words for special rules though, so don't let that put you off! Also for the wider community, some people struggle to say words they aren't familiar with. Maybe "Indomitable Blow"? It takes a bit of effort to pronounce (im imagining how easily the GBHL guys would say it).
Yeah bash knockes prone, a great special strike but not reliable enough to use in normal games unfortunately.
Can you tell me how much you would cost the smiths at in this hopefully last version? (edited in profiles post).

Yeah I'm quite happy with the KG, and you are correct, 6 dice, 2 attacks. These guys are unbeatable in a choke (until hurl happens, such cinematic), but people need to remember thats 32 pts to take up 1" of room that way, the same points gets you 6 goblins who will wreck them if they can get a flank but stand almost no chance of getting through charging head-on.

Cheers mate :)
Steve

Edit* I just went over the KG again, it doesn't add up to give them Mithril armour + shield as technically that bring them to D7. As much as I like that a S3 would have to wound them on a 6/4+, i think it would drag things out a bit too much, so I've reduced them down from D8 to D7 and subtracted 1 point from the cost. Most likely I will playtest this with rank & file orcs sometime and see how easy they can beat the defending KG by using the usual shield/spear combo.
If there is a consensus they should be D8, I will just give them "Defenders Shield" and say it grants +2D, in which case I will bump CB up to D9 and give him the same shield.

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Re: War in Eregion

Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:43 am

Oops thought it ment something different :oops: apoligies for that. If you want to keep the Second wound then it's your unit but it could just be impratical game wise, as they are with only one wound I think 14 points would be a fair price.....
Khazad guard are 11pts however you lose 2 defense and body guard so that takes you to 8....however you gain two strength, one fight, one courage and the special rule which takes you to thirteen then throw on another point as khazad guard are arguably slightly underpriced as well.
If you were to give them the second wound I'd price them around the 16/17 area although it is rather unusual so I'd just value it the same as an additional attack. But I think they're great how they are and the ability to bash and strike wounds represent how the power of their blows simply knocks foes to the floor.
I think you've got 3 great units their that are fairlypriced and unique so great work :) What did you have in mind next??
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Re: War in Eregion

Sun Aug 24, 2014 2:35 am

Just posting as an interested reader... great thread! 8-)

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Re: War in Eregion

Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:45 am

@kurtesh Cheers Buddy :)

I have been a bit busy this last week, but its all good. Did a bit of work on the evil banner, I'll post a WiP in a few days once it's getting somewhere.

I'm happy with where things are still, the only thing I would think about changing is making the Smith's S3 which was suggested by the Australian FB group. Celebrimbor will probably get a resistant to magic buff during the scenario only.

Next on the cards are some profiles for the evil chaps. The main one of these, and the hardest to do is Annatar. It would make the scenario's very unbalanced just to put the usual Sauron on the table - he has the one ring as well. This means that the good side would always be down or up a few hundred points worth of something (most likely normal warriors), and this would throw scenario balance way off.

Fortunately, I think Tolkien makes it quite clear that Sauron acted differently in his battles & struggles over the years, the common thread being that he would use deception while building his strength or causing a weakness in the enemy. Added to this is Tolkien's view of magic where it is really an amplification of a creatures characters in a mysterious sense: hobbits are resilient and able to overcome things that none in Middle Earth would be expected to (resistant to magic), Men are always able to overcome the challenges in their mortal lives (high attacks), Elves are wise and have a natural attunement with the land (natures wrath, renew etc).
Tolkien makes it clear the Sauron & Melkor were not creators but only marrers of things already made so I think it is thematic and translatable on the tabletop to follow through with these things.

How it looks to me in terms of Annatar:
Sauron lost his fair guise in the 2nd and 3rd age and was never able to take it up again, so he instead focused his "magic" on terror instead of fairness, as PJ depicts quite well in LOTR. He crafts intimidating armour, takes a form of great stature and terror and the power of the ring helps him to achieve this, that is why he is able to stand his ground in the Last Alliance instead of fleeing as he had done quite a few times in the past - none could stand before him. GW have a good range of spells which depict this.

As I have said, it doesn't translate over to give him terrifying spells when he is in fair guise, as it just doesn't work. As an evil being, we of course run into some problems here as to how he works in game, so we couldn't just give him all the spells/strengths of the good side, so the only option is to try and put him in between.

So let's dumb down the Sauron profile and please keep in mind that this is the first try with it, i fully expect to make 10 more changes, both slight and major. He loses Terror, Ancient Evil, Unstoppable but keeps Lord of the Rings, i think this one is ok to keep unless someone comes up with an alternative effect for the ring to have. Of his spells, the only ones I think he should keep are drain courage & compel, probably dropping transfix also as compel is more thematic for his role at this time.

Sauron
.. F ... S .. D . A .. W .. C . M/W/F
9/4+ . 8 .. 10. 3 .. 5 .. 7 .. 3/6*/**

Annatar - Points
.. F ... S .. D . A .. W .. C . M/W/F
6/4+ . 4 .. 6 .. 3 .. 3 .. 7 .. 3/6*/**

Definitely something we can continue to work with.
So why lower all this and what spells to give him? I asked myself the question (and asked on One Ring a few months ago), What did Sauron actually do when Tolkien says he was with his armies? The simplest thing is to look at historical figures and mimic them. So he would have gotten his hands dirty sometime, but for the most part it would be directing and organising the army, being its head (give courage to the troops) and so on. The spells/special rules that reflect this in the game might be fury, enrage, commanding presence/a banner, master of battle, For the dark lord!, bodyguard, whip of the masters, loyal to the captains, Iron fist/stand fast, blinding light, headtaker.
His offensive abilities might be swift parry, call winds, bladewrath, blood and glory.

This also means that we don't have to make another Aragorn or Gandalf/Ringwraith, but can stick with a combination of "Kingly" traits and make more of a support hero, which the SBG does not have a great deal of, so I am intending to go down that path. Once we sort out who he is, then we can readjust the profile so he fits better (eg less attacks, less will etc.)

I think the most suitable spells and abilities are:
Blood and Glory: Gains might for each wound
Commanding Presence: Troops treat him as a banner
A combined Bodyguard/For the dark lord! (courage bonus)
Bladewrath: Increases a targets strength for one round
Immobilise and perhaps Fury
I think its 1 or 2 spells short, as I would like to see that a significant decision has to be made each round about which spell to cast, more like Gandalf and less like a Ringwraith which is just sap will then transfix.

I'm going to check some battle companies rules to think about adding them to the mix and will update again shortly.

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Re: War in Eregion

Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:20 am

I have checked through Battle Companies, but I can't find anything suitable for a hero, much better for warriors.

Carrying on with the last post, I think it is important that Annatar and his troops have good chemistry/dynamics and really hurt each other when they aren't taken together. This would prevent Annatar's profile becoming to warrior like and prevent people just taking a regular Mordor-esque force.

I think one of the best ways to do this is through Annatar's bodyguard. The way Tolkien writes about the bodyguards of a hero really captures my imagination of a determined and tough bunch, really a step above your everyday warrior. Go read the BOFA and see what you think. Tolkien does it again for me in this story as *SPOILER* Annatar's bodyguard save his backside later on. The definitely don't have to be overpowered, but need to have the option to be game changers.

For this role I am thinking of strong people, able to take a beating (as Tolkien mentions in BOFA) and a bit larger than your typical soldier, but otherwise not spectacular. Think of a Mordor Orc looking up to a Black Guard of Barad-Dur. In fact I think that is probably a very good profile to start from. I actually ended up going with the Feral Uruk profile and taking the courage off (these guys are underpriced...). Please give suggestions for some better names if you can.

Annatar's Bodyguard - Points 11
.. F ... S .. D . A .. W .. C
4/4+ .. 4 . 5 .. 1 ... 2 .. 3

Yep, back to 2 wounds again, it may be annoying, but we'll see how it goes. Once the abilities of Annatar are sorted, I'll probably tack on an extra point or 2 in cost. These guys should be wading in and doing some real damage without having 2A. I'd like to give them "chop!" but that might be a bit too much.

In Annatars army there will be a mix of Warg Riders or Khand, Orcs, Bodyguard, Wild Men (any man less than D6), no or very few monsters and Tolkien doesn't mention them.

Before I forget, this is the special rule I liked from battle companies:
Blade Master: The Hero may re-roll one of his die per turn to determine who wins his fight. I don't see a problem with giving this to bodyguards as long as it is paid for. Players would need to elect to use this ability before any banner rolls.

Well done on reading this far, looking forward to any comments :)

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Re: War in Eregion

Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:12 am

:D

Just got back from holiday and have read through all this... it's great! I'm definitely in on this.

I'm liking the good guys stats so far, but just a few things:

Withe the kings guards, they can fight through other shielding kings guards themselves normally to add an extra 2 attacks? That would be cool... Also as protectors of the king, they could treat him as a banner?

I like celebrimbeeeer but i think he could do with an extra will if he is focused on sticking around to banish evil

The smiths are also great, and i thought of a fun special rule to represent their love of metals and the potential things they could make with a particularly strong metal etc.: Metal Lust - when within charging distance of an enemy model that has defence 7 or higher, Smiths of Eregion must take a courage test. If failed, this model must be charged. However, when in combat with a model that has d7 or higher, SoE may reroll dice in the duel.

This is quite thematic and i figured there wouldn't be that many evil guys with d7...

Great profiles though and i love the process that has gone on to make them.


For the evil i'm thinking forget Tolkien and bring back Melkor.... (the Mighty?) :lol:

Seriously though, i like what you have done with sauron. Thinking of spells, i thought of one that creates an area of destruction around him:

Despoil: measure a 6" radius around sauron, in which all woodland pieces are removed and rivers become impassable. Additionally, ALL models friend and foe suffer a S4 attack and are knocked to the ground, save Sauron himself.

Another special rule for him could be executing a friendly hero to inspire courage in his troops, and/or draining a friendly model of life to restore lost wound/s.

As for his guards (which you could call The Shadowshields), i think it would suit them to have 2A 1W because they are the chosen heavy hitters. Its also annoying to keep track of wounds. Considering their loyalty, what about a special rule where they can call a 'Heroic Combat' so to speak for free if sauron is outnumbered 3:1.


There's my thoughts, some worth more than others! All of these new profiles are looking cool, and i'm looking forward to helping out.

Cheers

N.B. I seem to remember making up another set of profiles with you Hodush, for a particular set of wizards...
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Re: War in Eregion

Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:00 pm

@Melkor Thanks for the suggestions :) Those blue wizards will see the light of day one day.
Yes the kings guard can "support" another kings guard when both are shielding. Still considering him as a banner, though I think not as a banner reroll would technically give them 4 attacks, even more unstoppable.
CB will get a will/resistance buff in scenarios, i think it works best that way, but I think I'll also be reducing Annatars will store.
The smiths special rule you mention is interesting. I'll consider it if people think they are underpriced.
No way I am doing Melkor, im having enough trouble with Annatar.

For Annatar I was thinking of an Area of Effect spell, but I can't think of something not overpowered or useless which is why im just sticking with fury for now. I like the name despoil, but I can't see it being useful unfortunately. One idea I am toying with is that a model which rolls a 6 in the fight roll and a 6 to kill gets a free heroic combat that same turn if within 3" of Annatar. This kind of represents his bodyguard or whoever wanting to show off and going into a bit of a frenzy.

I don't really want him restoring wounds with a renew or a will renewal action. However, I am kind of stuck with giving him 6 will. I could give him 4 but not sure if that makes him too weak. So perhaps I could dump fury and permit him to use his will as fate for anybody wounded within 3" or 6". Then we have the problem that he has nothing to spend might on, which may cause issues with the one ring and him vs CB.
Otherwise I was thinking of making a channelled bladewrath and giving them +2 strength when channelled or something. Maybe an AOE bladewrath, 3" 5+ cast? Im sure there is a better option somewhere.

I think I want him to be 2 attacks for sure, the rest is ok for now.
.. F ... S .. D . A .. W .. C . M/W/F
6/4+ . 4 .. 6 .. 2 .. 3 .. 7 .. 3/6*/**

Finally I do like the name Shadowshields (anything with Shadow in it gets my blood up), but Im not sure they should have shields. I definitely want to make some story with these guys that they are the original Black Guard of Barad Dur, which is why I won't take the easy road and give them 2 attacks, and will probably remove the 2nd wound.

Is there anything you guys want to do to help out in other ways? I can send you PM's if so.
What armies are you painting or planning on? Maybe a few colour scheme tests would be helpful.

Edit: Thanks to some random warhammer spells for inspiration, here are some other spell possibilities.
Soften Metal: Bonuses from metals are halved, feint and piercing strike cannot be used (and others using metal weapons)
Shield of thorns: S1 Hit inflicted on any attackers after wounds are determined (AOE spell possibly)
Despoil: Grass withers and the ground shifts, the ground becomes difficult (muddy terrain).Destroys woodland
Strengthen: Increase Strength by 1. Can also increase defence.
Weaken/Wither: Reduce strength by 1 (almost a drain courage).
Blizzard or Call winds
Mourning: The target is temporarily driven to distraction, must reroll any hits (archers) or even to win the fight or wound. (Maybe only any 6's)
Call to glory: Gains attack, strength.. heroic combat.. something.

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