War Gear: Banners

Upgrades that apply to multiple or all Armies

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War Gear: Banners

Wed Nov 11, 2015 3:03 pm

The following Warriors may purchase a Banner for 25 points
• Goblin Town – Goblin Warrior
• Moria – Goblin Warrior
• The Shire - Shirriff
• The Wanderers in the Wild – Wose Warrior
• The Army of Lake Town – Lake-town Guard
• Survivors of Lake Town - Lake Town Militia


=====EDITS=====
Added banner option to Survivors of Lake Town and Army of Lake Town.

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Re: War Gear: Banners

Wed Nov 11, 2015 3:05 pm

The reason for this rule:
Banners are used for scoring in one of the six official tournament scenarios ('To the Death'), but are not available to all Armies.

The goal of this proposed rule is to level the playing field.

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Re: War Gear: Banners

Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:37 am

Moria can use drums, but yes this looks like a good idea for the few people who missed out.
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Re: War Gear: Banners

Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:39 am

Edit: Never mind, I get it now you want everyone to be able to have the same chance to score points in the tournament scenario. Yes, good.
I would rather share one lifetime with you than face all the ages of this world alone.

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Re: War Gear: Banners

Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:35 am

May I also suggest that Gundabad Orc Warriors have the option of taking a banner considering it's shown heavily in the movie they have banners.

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Re: War Gear: Banners

Sat Nov 21, 2015 1:35 am

Dale doesn't have any banner options yet.
The Desolation of the North doesn't, but I think you will have to let that one slide. Smaug has other ways to win scenarios :D

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Re: War Gear: Banners

Sun Nov 22, 2015 3:01 pm

I don't think that every army needs to have a banner. Yes it becomes relevant in To the Death but otherwise it has no effect on tournaments. Plus their is a reason these armies were never given banners, beyond just theme, and that's balancing. Sure you can, practically, ally in anything you want be it banners, magic or whatever but these armies all have other specific advantages on the field that compensate for the lack of banners. All the armies listed here are horde armies that can usually get three or more dice in on a single fight. Adding banners to these armies would allow them to gain an advantage that they would otherwise need to sacrifices their numbers to get. I say let it be for the sake of keeping the armies balanced.

Consider this if you would, hobbits, dwarves and goblins all move slower then other infantry this means they all have a major disadvantage in games like reconnoiter, domination, and hold ground. Would, in the same spirit as adding banners, you be fine with altering these units to have a full six inch move or to allow their heroes to call free heroic marches? No you wouldn't. You'd say it was unbalanced, that the additional move compounds with the existing strongpoints of these armies to set them well above the existing power curve. What about cavalry to balance other tournament scenarios by giving every army ten inch moving horsemen so the could compete with the armies that can field horses? The point I am trying to make is that by adding banners to existing armies, expressly for the purpose of balancing tournament play, you are disregarding the existing balance the game.

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Re: War Gear: Banners

Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:29 am

I don't think that every army needs to have a banner. Yes it becomes relevant in To the Death but otherwise it has no effect on tournaments. Plus their is a reason these armies were never given banners, beyond just theme, and that's balancing. Sure you can, practically, ally in anything you want be it banners, magic or whatever but these armies all have other specific advantages on the field that compensate for the lack of banners. All the armies listed here are horde armies that can usually get three or more dice in on a single fight. Adding banners to these armies would allow them to gain an advantage that they would otherwise need to sacrifices their numbers to get. I say let it be for the sake of keeping the armies balanced.


Thanks for the feedback.

Comments on balance have to be taken seriously, since this unrelease profile project has to prioritise making units acceptable to opponents over units that players themselves want to take. If providing banners to all armies was a stumbling point for TOs who'd like to use these profiles, or to players themselves, they would be removed.

I'll explain my view on it; I don't think armies like The Army of Lake Town and Survivors of Lake Town weren't given banners for balance reasons. They aren't very different from most armies of Men, so it's more likely they were overlooked.

Armies like hobbits and goblins are very different in speed, skill and number, but from a balance point of view these armies actually benefit from banners less than armies with higher skill, not more. The higher the fight skill of the models in the fight, the more they benefit from additional dice and rerolls.

For example
Orc with Spear-support and Banner (A, with higher fight value and 3 dice) vs Hobbit (B, with lower fight value) = Orc wins 82.64% of combats

Image

Other examples:
Orc with Spear and Banner vs Hobbit with banner = Orc wins 71.93% of combats
Orc with Banner (A, with higher fight and 2 dice) vs Hobbit with banner (B with lower fight and 2 Dice) = Orc wins 61.03%

Image

Orc vs Hobbit with banner = Orc wins 42.13%

Note you can change the Orc for anything with Fight 3 or higher and Hobbit for anything with F2. Against pikes with banners the hobbit fares far worse, even if supported and even if given a banner.

The short version:
The lower the relative fight value, the less there is to be gained from a banner (or any other form of reroll or additional support dice). The impact on balance is likely to be negligible (It is possible that the removal of around 5 models to pay for one banner would make the horde army slightly weaker rather than stronger).
It might still be worth taking a banner even in an unusually low Fight skill army, since 1 of 6 scenarios scores based on it.

If nothing else, hopefully you can see that balance is not being disregarded. :)

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Re: War Gear: Banners

Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:57 am

Woah numbers.

Here are my numbers: I would rather my hobbitty enemies take a guy with a banner if it means they have 8 less hobbit militia.

G******n, hobbits are cheap!
LOTR: 3000pts ANGMAR, 1200 MINAS TIRITH, 2000 DWARFS, 12000 ELVES. I HAVE A PROBLEM... not enough models. :mrgreen:

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Re: War Gear: Banners

Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:59 pm

Interesting chart. But what happens when the orc fights 2 hobbits or 4 goblins? Won't the odds change when the horde brings its numbers to bare?

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