August white dwarf

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Re: August white dwarf

Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:50 am

Ugh. Thats an ugly looking paragraph.

TL;DR. The move by GW to ban online discounted retailers is hypocrisy. They've done lots of things which damaged wargaming in general, and to back up their claim to be "protecting wargaming", they must also try when possible to reduce or freeze their prices. Otherwise, they're just going to drive people away from the Hobby by pricing them out and simultaneously eliminating their alternatives.

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I'm amazed that you think this solves anything. GW's RRP are so high now, that some people had no choice but to look for discounted product online. Theres no other way they could afford the (GW) Hobby. And now that GW is cutting off their only lifeline of affordable miniatures, they're priced out altogether.

I agree that physical shops (failing that, clubs) with space for gaming and painting is crucial for wargaming as its an intrinsically social hobby, and under different circumstances I too would applaud GW's stance. But I just cannot consider this move as anything other than blatant hypocrisy.

On the one hand, they claim to be trying to protect the wargaming industry by banning "free loaders", but on the other hand they are helping to kill off the wargaming industry.

-exorbitant prices

-cutting box content and raising prices at the same time

-switching to a supposedly cheaper material yet not passing on savings to their customers on their already excessively expensive products. Instead they raised prices. For a cheaper material.

-banning retailers from selling overseas to the USA and Australia (regardless of whether they have a physical store). Thus holding gamers in those locations hostage to their local extremely disproportionate prices.

-GW is a free loader themselves. I've read anecdotes relating how successful Independent Gaming Stores selling a variety of ranges are driven out of business when GW opens a store in their area. The Independent stores did the hard work, promoting wargaming in general and creating a popular demand in a given area. GW sees this, opens a store and sucks customers away, driving the Independents out of business. GW eventually alienates the customers through its typical BS and now the very stores they opened to exploit the Independents' success and hard work are themselves on the verge of closure, leaving the area without any wargaming stores. These are anecdotes (and I forget where I saw them - Dakka Dakka probably) so make of it what you will, but it is appalling if true.

-letting old and still popular games die through lack of support and discontinuation of models. (Necromunda, Mordheim, Battlefleet Gothic, Bloodbowl, Epic Armageddon, Warmaster).

I've been playing LOTR for 10 years, and Warhammer 40K for 5, and for the first 7 of those years I'd never bought from anywhere other than GW itself. The (LOTR) models were reasonably priced (though expensive by industry standards), 24 infantry for £15, a metal hero or 3 Elites for £8; and I was happy to pay those prices. But they have skyrocketed in recent years, more than doubling (and soon, tripling) in price. Its only been in the last 3 years that I've begun looking for discounted models, getting 2nd hand off Ebay and at conventions, and starting buying from other companies ranges (Gripping Beast, Wargames Factory, Musketeer Miniatures). GW is working hard to eliminate all sources of discounts for their products, so I'm no longer buying their models.


This move by GW to ban online retailers is BS. Thats nothing but a marketing lie. The only company the move is designed to benefit is GW itself. The only thing that could possibly convince me otherwise would be if GW then reduced their prices or at least froze them long term (till the world recession is over).

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Re: August white dwarf

Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:22 am

Eldarion Telcontar wrote:-GW is a free loader themselves. I've read anecdotes relating how successful Independent Gaming Stores selling a variety of ranges are driven out of business when GW opens a store in their area. The Independent stores did the hard work, promoting wargaming in general and creating a popular demand in a given area. GW sees this, opens a store and sucks customers away, driving the Independents out of business. GW eventually alienates the customers through its typical BS and now the very stores they opened to exploit the Independents' success and hard work are themselves on the verge of closure, leaving the area without any wargaming stores. These are anecdotes (and I forget where I saw them - Dakka Dakka probably) so make of it what you will, but it is appalling if true.


I can give a first-hand confirmation. A couple of years ago, there was a flourishing store that I used to be a regular at. Then, a GW opened in the same area. The owner of the FLGS was -at first- enthusiastic, as he saw the new GW store as an expansion to the community, as it would draw new customers and expand the community.
This FLGS had everything going for it: a large customer base, room for gaming -and tournaments-, two game nights per week. Heck, it was even open on sundays. And regulars were able to purchase a membership card that gave them a 10% discount, even on GW products, in form of store credit after 10 purchases.

They also did their best to promote the hobby, organising tournaments, commissioning local painters -that were hobbyists themselves- to paint up models, even before release, for display in store, to get people excited for the releases.

That all changed after GW opened. Since then, suddenly, new releases would arrive at least one week after launch, while the GW store had them on release day. GW gave the FLGS quota (you have to take a minimum of this and this and that every release, even though you probably can't get rid of it because everyone that wanted it bought it a week earlier at our own store or else you can't sell our product anymore at all).

This ended up in massive loss for the owner, who had to move to a smaller building, one that has no space for in-store gaming, resulting in far less support for the community in general and while he still runs a store, he ended up completely stopping selling GW products for a few years. Only recently has he started selling GW again, simply because GW products do remain popular.

The club that formed at that FLGS still exists, though it has moved on. The only GW game that is still played fairly regularly is SBG, 40K and Fantasy are pretty much dead. And the SBG players that remain are actually buying most of their models second hand, myself being the only exception as I have most of what I want from the LotR range and thus I end up buying just the new releases from the Hobbit -from a local modelling shop that has an in-store order point, focuses far more on selling model cars and trains, and gives a 5% discount to club members.
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Re: August white dwarf

Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:37 pm

GW price hike - I agree they suck.

GW business practices about infiltrating another game stores territory, yeah that is too bad, but anyone is free to open a store in a GW owned area and take their business. If other companies models are so awesome and better priced then it should be easy to out sell a GW right? well, if people are not buying those other war mini's from a cheap online source and just using your store to game in.

So GW being a company that is trying to make money I have no doubt. That is not what I supported, I agreed with the guy in the video, he has a store, he thinks it is a good idea, regardless if you believe the motives of GW.

The fact GW knows is that online stores do NOT promote the hobby thus they are bleeding the hobby out and those wounds need to be closed. Every company should do this. You can HATE GW all you want, but that doesn't make it right for a guy to sell GW stuff from his bedroom. If you really support those guys you would get your own trade liceanse and buy models for yourself at super discount and sell to your friends and never give business to an actual store ever again. Shoot, if I had no morals, I would have got a trade agreement with them 8 years ago and just bought my own stuff for a discount, there are no stores near me so I should be the one supporting online sellers right? but I have morals, I won't take advantage of a company, even GW, for my own selfish sake.

People see GW and auto scream Price hikes, screwing fans by not supporting a dying game, making awesome models but not making them as cheap as they want to pay. These things I agree with, GW is hurting itself by doing this. Has been beaten to death and is not waht I am talking about here. I am saying that GW suporting having a store in order to be able to sell their products online is a GREAT idea that I support. All the things
GW does that people hate aside.
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Re: August white dwarf

Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:05 pm

Sithious, you seem to have completely missed my point.

Under different circumstances, I would agree with GW's move. Stores with gaming and hobby facilities are necessary to support the hobby.

But GW has only gone halfway in "protecting wargaming". They are kicking out "freeloading" online retailers, whilst simultaneously pricing people out of GW. If they're going to try to "protect wargaming", they must go ALL the way and try to ensure that the Hobby remains affordable for the average gamer. If they did this, they would have my full support once again.

I've only been in Wargaming for 10 years (now 22) and they've already completely alienated me (a slow process over the last 4 years). Thats a remarkably quick time to lose a customer where wargaming is concerned.

And as I mentioned and Grashnar seconded, they're directly damaging the wargaming industry in general through predatory practices.

The fact that they are not doing that, reveals their sanctimonius claims to be a lie. They are not acting out of altruism, but self interest, doing their best to establish as close to a monopoly as they can get within the boundaries of the law, so lets not pretend they do what they do for the good of the Hobby.

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Re: August white dwarf

Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:23 pm

Also, could an Admin please start a dedicated "GW Moan Thread" like DMS did over on One Ring (or "Debating the Decline of GW" on Dakka Dakka) and move this conversation there? We're going way off topic.

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Re: August white dwarf

Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:09 pm

You are right about disingenous motives. I never said they were doing this with good intentions, they are doing this so the wargaming hobby and thus their paychecks are intact. It is all money. If they are pricing the customers out of the maket that is a seperate issue and I think GW is dumb for it, that doesn't hurt the War gaming industry, it just takes out it's biggest player (unfortunately it hasn't made them go down yet). But more and more of you ex GW fans are turning to other companies, that is awesome for the gamintg industry. Someday Gripping Beast may be pissing you off and going with the greed having lost sight of the original intent (years change CEO's).
I think that a good store should be able to easily compete with GW. There is only one Hobby shop left near me that sells GW, I don't shop there often cause it is out of my way. But the GW down the street from them opened to compete and lost and shut doors and the Whiz Hobby supply is still strong. They sell lots of models from other companies, they also sell hobby supplies of all other sorts and even the big department craft stores have not budged them. So Small stores can survive, they just have to have better tactics.

Is gW greedy = yes
are they over priced comared to other companies = yes
are they trying to make you buy from them instead of someone else = yes
are they trying to stop people from buying used models, bits or 2nd hand to make you buy brand new from them = yes
are they allowing their IP's to get more support and letting smaller projects die = yes
To some extent these are common practices by the top dogs with the exeption of prices, usually the top dog can have the cheapest prices and make the small dogs fail, GW has missed this somehow.

I think GW still promotes the hobby with it's existance, but not my Hobbit hobby anymore. I think they are doing at least a good thing in promoting stores instead of online sellers because the hobby needs that. If GW went away, the market would still be there, small shops will reopen, indi war gaming will continue. It may not be huge like GW does for tournaments, but it will exist. I will not weep for GW ever, If they don't make all the hobbit models I will be a bit miffed for a while as I figure out how to convert or sculpt what I want. And then the fan war gaming rules can come out free pdf with rules for using any/alternate companies models and no more unbalanced rulesets. :)
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Re: August white dwarf

Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:56 pm

Gripping Beast is as I understand it run by a handful of guys (brothers or friends probably) with just one Warehouse and a gaming store area (referred to as "Beast Towers"). Everytime I order from them I get a personalised handwritten thankyou note. :D

Sithious wrote: If they are pricing the customers out of the maket that is a seperate issue and I think GW is dumb for it, that doesn't hurt the War gaming industry, it just takes out it's biggest player (unfortunately it hasn't made them go down yet).


It does harm wargaming in cases when GW has become so ubiquitous and dominent that there are no local alternatives for wargamers as in Grashnars case. If all Independent stores are driven out of an area by a GW store, and wargamers in that area are then alienated from GW, they then have nowhere to play locally. When people quit GW, more often than not they will quit Wargaming altogether.


And I disagree that other gaming stores can easily compete with GW directly. GW is a powerful big business. They can outspend, out-advertise and promote, out-produce and have a more prominent high street presence and exposure than all their competitors.

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Re: August white dwarf

Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:58 pm

Heres a link for the release:
http://www.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php ... &start=120
Its a bit blurry but theres a few pics in the rulebook.I hate when they release bilbos.This is the forth.Theres going to be a fifth as seen in rulebook.
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Take a look at my W.I.P tread: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7616&p=81441#p81441

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