Fallen Realms Book errata and FAQ questions only

All questions or things you think are wrong about the new book to be posted here. Will collate into a long list and get it sent off after a while!

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Re: Fallen Realms Book errata and FAQ questions only

Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:34 pm

GrashnarTheSecond wrote:Have you read the character descriptions of Sharkey and Worm in their profile?

Descriptions arn't rules though, thats my point. Nor are the books this game is made on actually hard rules, if they were kife would be alot easier. Im not suggesting i would or others should field them together, but as far as RAW the only rule that told you they couldnt be fielded together because they are infact the same characters with different names has now been removed.

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Re: Fallen Realms Book errata and FAQ questions only

Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:59 pm

On page 5 they clearly say that you can't have 2 of the same named hero. Even if there are different versions of the same hero.
Sharku is a different version of Saruman, therefore you can't take both. The entry under the Necromancer is unecessary, probably yet another leftover from copy paste. The entry on page 5 was suficient, RAW you can't take them both since they are different versions of the same hero.

By defending that the text on page 5 implies, RAW, that you can take Saruman and Sharku due to absence of specific text present you are defending that RAW you can take 2 Éomers, 2 Boromirs, 3 Aragorns, 2 Haldirs, 2 Elronds, 2 Galadriels and probably someone else I missed since they have different versions and no entry explaining that it's the same guy.
If you had never interacted with LOTR before you would probably think Elessar and Aragorn are 2 different blokes

The description for Sharku while not relevant ruleswise is important since it points out to newcomers what we treat as obvious fact. That Sharku is Curunír

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Re: Fallen Realms Book errata and FAQ questions only

Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:02 pm

sharkey
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Re: Fallen Realms Book errata and FAQ questions only

Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:32 am

But LonelyKnight all those characters you mention share the same name whilst Saruman and Sharkey do not share the same name, therefore the note should not have been removed.

If you can rely on the descriptions, books and the movies to tell you who's who instead of hard rules it could fix this issue but then some players might think they wouldnt be able to field Eomer and Erkenbrand for example, since in the movie Eomer is the Hero leading the Riders to the defence of Helm's deep but in the book its Erkenbrand. Thats why Hard rules are necessary so as to confirm to everybody what is and isnt legal.

In WotR there is some character text in the rules that states the standard of rohan is an army banner, but since its descriptive and not ruled it doesn't stand. And unfortuently no matter what we read or watch unless its ruled it doesnt stand. Thats why the note should be brought back since its a concrete rule that has always been present till now. And if your telling me that the the tiny little paragraph on page 5 is enough to cover this then why is the note still present for the necromancer? It has to be an error, because if it was a copy and paste situation they would have copy and pasted sharkey's note aswell.

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Re: Fallen Realms Book errata and FAQ questions only

Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:42 am

adragonsfang wrote:And if your telling me that the the tiny little paragraph on page 5 is enough to cover this then why is the note still present for the necromancer? It has to be an error, because if it was a copy and paste situation they would have copy and pasted sharkey's note aswell.

Why is it not possible that they copied all the profiles, deleted the 'you may not take both X and Y as they are the same hero' under the profiles but forgot to do that for the Necromancer?
Page 5 does cover the entire issue, just doesn't list all those who it applied to. GW probably thought this was common sense.
It doesn't make sense at all that some players would confuse Erkenbrand and Eomer, as those who read the books (and as such know who Erkenbrand is and what he did) also know Eomer is a completely different bloke altogether. Or do you think people would confuse Arwen with Glorfindel as well?
I am aware of the fact that the novels aren't rulebooks, but on the issue of 'who is this guy?', they are the best available source. Page 6 also says something about the different periods of time some characters lived in, without giving a full list of all characters and their era. Why? Because there are other books that cover that story.

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Re: Fallen Realms Book errata and FAQ questions only

Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:46 pm

adragonsfang wrote:But LonelyKnight all those characters you mention share the same name whilst Saruman and Sharkey do not share the same name, therefore the note should not have been removed.

You are ignoring the obvious fact that some people share the same name while being different individuals.
Imagine the scenario where you are playing a game from a background you know nothing of. You see two profiles: Henry, King of Stuff and Henry, Duke of Something. Maybe it's the same guy at two different stages, maybe it's two guys named Henry. You don't know.
You know that there is only one Éomer/Aragorn/everyone else because you know the fluff already, to anyone that doesn't know it they could be different guys

adragonsfang wrote:If you can rely on the descriptions, books and the movies to tell you who's who instead of hard rules it could fix this issue but then some players might think they wouldnt be able to field Eomer and Erkenbrand for example, since in the movie Eomer is the Hero leading the Riders to the defence of Helm's deep but in the book its Erkenbrand. Thats why Hard rules are necessary so as to confirm to everybody what is and isnt legal.

In WotR there is some character text in the rules that states the standard of rohan is an army banner, but since its descriptive and not ruled it doesn't stand. And unfortuently no matter what we read or watch unless its ruled it doesnt stand. Thats why the note should be brought back since its a concrete rule that has always been present till now. And if your telling me that the the tiny little paragraph on page 5 is enough to cover this then why is the note still present for the necromancer? It has to be an error, because if it was a copy and paste situation they would have copy and pasted sharkey's note aswell.


The note was clearly a copy paste error since then necromancer is specifically mentioned in the text in page 5. There is no point in repeating what was already stated.
The size of said paragraph is not relevant.

The rules specifically state that you can't take two different versions of the same hero. It's in the rules.
You are not using the fluff to get that rule. You do need the story to know who is who, knowing who is who does not equal in game limitations or rules.
It says no where in the hard rules that you can't take two guys that were never together in the story, so even if the fluff wouldn't allow it the game places no limitations on that.


@black1blade, kudos.

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Re: Fallen Realms Book errata and FAQ questions only

Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:12 pm

LonelyKnight wrote:You are ignoring the obvious fact that some people share the same name while being different individuals.
Imagine the scenario where you are playing a game from a background you know nothing of. You see two profiles: Henry, King of Stuff and Henry, Duke of Something. Maybe it's the same guy at two different stages, maybe it's two guys named Henry. You don't know.
You know that there is only one Éomer/Aragorn/everyone else because you know the fluff already, to anyone that doesn't know it they could be different guys

But thats the whole point of the note system! It lets the players know concrete who is who and which profiles can and can't be played together. And as for two guys with the same name there isnt a single example of that in SBG! But if there ever were, for example if they brought out "Boromir, Steward of Gondor" (Fellowship Boromir's 14 times great grandfather) they would certainly make a note to tell us that these two are different people just as they have made notes to tell us when two profiles are the same character.

LonelyKnight wrote:The note was clearly a copy paste error since then necromancer is specifically mentioned in the text in page 5. There is no point in repeating what was already stated.
The size of said paragraph is not relevant.

I still disagree, its not conclusive enough. Examples have been made before and then still printed on a profile, just because an example is given does not make it unnecessary to then print it on a profile.

LonelyKnight wrote:The rules specifically state that you can't take two different versions of the same hero. It's in the rules. You are not using the fluff to get that rule .
But you do have to use fluff to know Sharky and Saruman are the same guy!
LonelyKnight wrote: You do need the story to know who is who, knowing who is who does not equal in game limitations or rules.
It says no where in the hard rules that you can't take two guys that were never together in the story, so even if the fluff wouldn't allow it the game places no limitations on that.

Which is exactly why you need the note to tell you they are the same guy because only the fluff tells you they are and as you said the fluff means nothing, only rules impose limitations. And they have said that now they have removed the notes for heroes of old there are now no rules to prevent a player fielding both Aragorn and Elendil, even though we all know from the story and fluff it shouldn't be. There are many examples where rules have been made that contradict whats in the books but what is ruled counts and what isnt, doesn't. And there is no rule that states they are the same character!

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Re: Fallen Realms Book errata and FAQ questions only

Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:38 pm

adragonsfang wrote:And as for two guys with the same name there isnt a single example of that in SBG! But if there ever were, for example if they brought out "Boromir, Steward of Gondor" (Fellowship Boromir's 14 times great grandfather) they would certainly make a note to tell us that these two are different people just as they have made notes to tell us when two profiles are the same character.

Once again, you only know there aren't two guys with the same name because you know the fluff.
It's not a hard concept to grasp, remove the books and the movies and all the fluff and with the rules alone you have no way of knowing that the two Éomer profiles are the same guy at two different times.
And they did not include any notes to tell us that those two Éomers are the same guy.

Seriously, "there isnt a single example of that in SBG!".. and you know that because..
.. you know the fluff. No rule anywhere tells you that those repeated names are actually the same guy.

Boromir's Banner of Minas Tirith, an example of an obvious mistake
"...all Warriors from the Gondor army list within 3" receive..."
There is no "Gondor army list".
In the previous version of the rule it read ".. all Warriors of the realm of Gondor" we all know from the fluff that Gondor is represented by the Minas Tirith and the Fiefdoms army lists in this new version. Without fluff there is no Gondor in the new sourcebooks.

In the Gondor in Flames sourcebook they have notes both under Elessar's and Boromir's profiles mentioning that you can only take one of the version yet those notes were dropped in the new books, like Sharkey's was.
Elrond, Master of Rivendelll also had a note, can't see it in the new book. Aragorn, Isildur's heir as well
Haldir, Defender of Helm's Deep as well
And Gandalf the Grey in the ORB and Gandalf the White too, and Galadriel, LotG in the FotN
The Necromancer is the exception, the only guy that still has that note. That's why we believe it to be an oversight.

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Re: Fallen Realms Book errata and FAQ questions only

Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:16 am

+1 LK.

I'd like to state that my point still stands as well. Even in the very unlikely event that you do not know the background of Lord of the Rings, or don't know exactly who Sharkey is, there is still the description in the profile, no matter if it's hard rules or not.

In fact, the best example of this is the Spider Queen. She has two different profiles, one in Mordor, one in Moria & Angmar. The one in Mordor is a named hero and can lead a warband, the one in Moria & Angmar is unnamed and independent. They also have different descriptions in their profiles. The Mordor profile specifically refers to her as being the Queen of Mirkwood.
However, the Mordor profile mentions her under the movement rules as the Spider Queen and in the Moria rules as Spider Queens. While this is directly contradicted in the Progeny rule, where the Mordor profile says a Spider Queen and the Moria profile says the Spider Queen, it is clear from the description that the Mordor Queen is named whereas the Moria Queen is not.
Armies:
Kingdoms of Men(Minas Tirith, Fiefdoms, Arnor), The Free Peoples(Durin's Folk, The Fellowship, The Wanderers in the Wild, The White Council), Mordor, The Fallen Realms(Isengard, Harad and Umbar, The Eastern Kingdoms), Moria & Angmar

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Re: Fallen Realms Book errata and FAQ questions only

Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:23 am

LonelyKnight wrote:Once again, you only know there aren't two guys with the same name because you know the fluff.
It's not a hard concept to grasp, remove the books and the movies and all the fluff and with the rules alone you have no way of knowing that the two Éomer profiles are the same guy at two different times.
And they did not include any notes to tell us that those two Éomers are the same guy.

Seriously, "there isnt a single example of that in SBG!".. and you know that because..
.. you know the fluff. No rule anywhere tells you that those repeated names are actually the same guy.

Actually it says just that on page 5. It says "Aragorns" not "Aragorn - Strider" not "Aragorn, King Elessar", but "Aragorns". This is telling us that a "named individual" is defined by his name. Aragorn, Haldir, Elrond, Gandalf, these are all names. The grey, the white, defender of helms deep, Master of Rivendell, these are all titles.
...you may only have one of any named individual in your army. You can't have an army made up entirely of Aragorns!

This is here to cover including duplicates of heroes AND different titled heroes.
The same is true if there are several different versions of the same Hero - Sauron and the Necromancer, fir example.

This is here to try and cover individuals who are the same character but with different names. Hense the example. And we can notice that in practice this rule currently only applies to 3 individuals, Sauron/The Necromancer Saruman/ Sharkey and Wormtongue/Worm, the latter two being in a dual profile!
LonelyKnight wrote:Boromir's Banner of Minas Tirith, an example of an obvious mistake
"...all Warriors from the Gondor army list within 3" receive..."
There is no "Gondor army list".
And we've established this is an error that needs to be changed as RAW the banner has NO ingame effect because there isnt a Gondor list. We interperet it to be both Minas tirith and Fiefdoms but since it says Gondor and that no longer exists the banner strictly has no effect with RAW. Thus why its been reported in the first place.
We all interprit Sharkey and Saruman as the same "individual" but the rules DON'T say that.

LonelyKnight wrote:In the Gondor in Flames sourcebook they have notes both under Elessar's and Boromir's profiles mentioning that you can only take one of the version yet those notes were dropped in the new books, like Sharkey's was.
Elrond, Master of Rivendelll also had a note, can't see it in the new book. Aragorn, Isildur's heir as well
Haldir, Defender of Helm's Deep as well
And Gandalf the Grey in the ORB and Gandalf the White too, and Galadriel, LotG in the FotN
The Necromancer is the exception, the only guy that still has that note. That's why we believe it to be an oversight.

But Aragorn and Boromir are now covered under the first part of the named heroes rule, because there names are Aragorn and Boromir and you can't include them more then once.
And as i've established above The Necromancer is only the "exception" to a 2 profile list. "The Necromancer" and "Sharkey and Worm" therefore there isnt enough evidence to suggest that the necromancer is wrong and sharkey is right.
And i would have you realise that the notes for the golden king and Grima Wormtongue still exist aswell as the necromancer and that the text has been edited not just copy and pasted from the necromancers last print.

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